Help with Uncle's WWII Service Record - ITALY

[alroch4]

Hi, I continue working to decipher my uncle’s time in Italy during WWII. Some assistance would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

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1.
Arrived (disembarked in Italy) on 18 November 1944. What would be the location in Italy? I assume he’s on the X-4 list? My research found that: X-4 List "Unposted reinforcements in the theatre of war belonging to the unit or corps". In most cases refers to time at a Canadian Reinforcement Depot – Italy.

2.
He’s taken from the X-4 list Canadian Reinforcement Depot and assigned to the 3 Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment – Italy – 12 December 1944.

3,4,5
Entry #3 confuses me. Based on other info. on file, on December 31, 1944, he is assessed by 24 CFL Ambulance. He has tonsilitis. But I see only an SOS…not TOS? According to what I found “X-3 List - All ranks evacuated on medical grounds behind Regimental Aid Posts". Either wounded or sick enough that he left the unit. Which makes sense because the entries for #5 shows he first admitted at 3 Canadian General Hospital – Italy…but where in Italy? and then to 1 Canada General Hospital, Andria, Italy. I assume entry #4 is more administrative to remove him from his regiment while he is hospitalized.

6. Left Italy to return to France. Any idea on locations?

[Temujin]

Hi, I continue working to decipher my uncle’s time in Italy during WWII. Some assistance would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Wood - Italy.jpg

1.
Arrived (disembarked in Italy) on 18 November 1944. What would be the location in Italy? I assume he’s on the X-4 list? My research found that: X-4 List "Unposted reinforcements in the theatre of war belonging to the unit or corps". In most cases refers to time at a Canadian Reinforcement Depot – Italy.

First a suggestion. It would be better to see all the pages (before your questions) as you have cut of important information before he arrives in Italy. It would be nice to see “which” unit he was assigned to before arrive in Italy. I believe he may have arrived as part of the reinforcement groups that landed later

I can give you a little bit of info. Some is based on the Knowledge that my father-in-law was a member of the Perth Regiment, which was in the same Division as the 3rd Cdn Armoured Recce Regiment

So again I’ll tackle this with one question at a time, because for some of them I have to do a little more research.

Question 1:
The 3 Cdn Armoured Recce Regiment (Governor Generals Horse Guards) were part of the 5th Cdn Amoured Divison, which arrived “later” to Italy. They did NOT fight in Sicily, but landed directly in Italy. My father in law arrived in NAPLES, as their point of disembarkation but he arrived in a Reinforcement Group. I believe the 5th Armoured Division first landed in North Africa (Phillipville) before continuing on to Italy (I will check on this for you). As you mentioned your Uncle was also on the X-4 list, so he “may” have arrived later (as did my father in law)

5th Canadian Armoured Division

• 3rd Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (The Governor General's Horse Guards)

[Temujin]

Hi, I continue working to decipher my uncle’s time in Italy during WWII. Some assistance would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Wood - Italy.jpg

6. Left Italy to return to France. Any idea on locations?

Sorry, I’m not doing your questions ‘in order’ as some information i have readily at hand, and other questions need a bit more research.

Question 6;

I will try and find out were the 3 Cdn Armoured Recce Regiment was.

As you can see from his records he moved from Italy to France.

This was a move of the ENTIRE 1st CANADIAN CORPS in Italy to France. A HUGE move of thousands of men and equipment.

The move was called “OPERATION GOLDFLAKE”. This move took the ENTIRE Corps from two ports in Italy, the main port being “LEGHORN” (as it’s was called by the military). It was actually Livorno, Italy.

Here is some basic info from the Operation that shows the move, and if you look at the dates, you can see his records “match” the move

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The Historical Report gives you all the information on the move at this link

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/theme ... mhq181.pdf

[alroch4]

Thanks for again for your help. It gives me a lot to follow up on and learn. Here's the more complete page as you suggested I provide. He was with 21 Canadian Armoured Regiment (CGFG) in France. He was gunner/operator in a tank crew. Got wounded, ended up at Park Prewett Hospital (No. 13 Canadian General Hospital) in U.K. According to the note on file, "he could not return to his posting as part of a tank crew"...so looks like he was discharged to another regiment and sent to Italy.

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[Temujin]

That helps…… I wonder why he couldn’t go back to an Armoured Regiment, yet he was “fit’ enough to be posted to a Armoured Recce Regiment.

I’ll work on your other questions shortly…….sometimes I have no one to help, and other times it gets busy…….this is a busy time (usually is just before Remembrance Day).

Thanks for the info update and cheers.

[Temujin]

Hi, I continue working to decipher my uncle’s time in Italy during WWII. Some assistance would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

2.
He’s taken from the X-4 list Canadian Reinforcement Depot and assigned to the 3 Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment – Italy – 12 December 1944.

QUESTION 2

You are correct. But, a little more information on Armoured Corps reinforcements. They handled them a “little differently” than all the other branches of service (Infantry, Engineers, etc).

In each Operational Location (Normandy, Italy etc) their was an “Armoured Corps regiment” that their ONLY JOB was to deliver new armoured vehicles to the front lines. In the case of Italy it was ‘G’ & ‘H’ Squadrons, 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment. By the way the 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment was the ONLY delivery regiment in the Canadian Army. The Operational area’s all had “part” of this Regiment, they were assigned by Delivery Squadrons. Usually their was two squadrons assigned to each front. On Squadron was “close” to the front, so tanks could be moved up quickly, and the second squadron was quite a way back from the front. So obviously tanks and armoured vehicles were moving forward from back to front etc. In Italy “G” Squadron was the FRONT SQUADRON and “H” Squadron was the REAR SQUADRON.

BUT (yes another but) I said their ONLY JOB was to deliver new armoured vehicles, well this was partially true, their second job was to act as a ‘reinforcement’ unit.

I’ll explain. Reinforcement’s for Armoured units (X-List) were sent from England or wherever to the Armoured Delivery Regiment, their they continued to train etc. When a front line regiment needed new Armoured Vehicles (for example one was destroyed, but the crew survived) the 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment would send up a new vehicle, and the existing crew would take over that vehicle) etc etc. BUT, if the front line unit had casualties (crew killed or wounded) the 25th Armoured Regiment would transport that vehicle AND the crew to operate it to the Front Line unit, where they now became part of that unit.

So, replacement tanks or other armoured vehicles could come up WITH or WITHOUT crew………or if the forward unit just needed more manpower reinforcements, them X-List men would be sent up.

And it was usual for an Armoured vehicle to have all the men in it “train together” to know how to work together etc. This didn’t mean that they stayed together when they went to the Front Line unit, it was just “if” they Front Line Unit need a new TANK and CREW, this crew that trained together would come up WITH the new TANK.

So Reinforcements on the X-List could be held and waiting in the REAR SQUADRON, or may be moved up to the just behind the FRONT LINE SQUADRON of the 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment.

If you want to know more about the 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment, let me know and I can send you info, or give you links to where to find it.

Sorry, long post to the question that I and said “you are right” in the first line

Cheers

[Temujin]

Quick history of the 25th Cdn Armoured Delivery Regiment:

https://rcacavm.ca/wp-content/uploads/2 ... ElginR.pdf

Sicily 1943, Italy 1943-1945, North-West Europe, 1944-1945

Historical Sketch

On 24 May 1940, the Regiment mobilized The Elgin Regiment, C.A.S.F. It was converted to armour and redesignated as 25th Armoured Regiment (The Elgin Regiment) on 26 January 1942. It formed a part of 3rd Armoured Brigade of 4th Canadian Armoured Division, and it embarked for the United Kingdom on 29 September 1942. On 11 January 1943, the Regiment was redesignated as 1st Canadian Tank Delivery Regiment tasked with delivering tanks to Canadian armoured regiments engaged in operations in forward areas. On 06 May 1943, part of "B" Squadron was renamed "A" and formed 1st Canadian Tank Delivery Squadron and landed in Sicily on 16 July 1943 as the tank delivery unit for 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade. It landed in Italy on 14 September 1943. On 15 September 1943, the Regiment was redesignated 25th Canadian Tank Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment), and on 21 October 1943 1st Canadian Tank Delivery Squadron was reorganized into "A" and "B" squadrons. "A" Squadron being a "front" squadron and "B" Squadron being a "rear" squadron. The "front and rear" functions were necessary due to the great distances involved in forwarding replacement tanks to the Front. Similarily, in the United Kingdom, the original "A" Squadron became "E" and "F" (front and rear), "C" Squadron became "G" and "H" (front and rear), and the remainder of "B" Squadron became "C" and "D" (front and rear). "F" Squadron was attached to Regimental Headquarters on 15 November 1943. "G" and "H" Squadrons landed in Italy on 04 and 06 January 1944 respectively. "G" squadron was attached to 5th Canadian Armoured Division, and "H" Squadron supported 1st Canadian Corps. On 15 March 1944 the Regiment was redesignated 25th Armoured Delivery Regiment (The Elgin Regiment). On 08 June 1944, "C" Squadron landed in Normandy in support of 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade. "E" Squadron landed on 10 July 1944 with 2nd Canadian Corps. "F" Squadron landed on 23 July 1944 handling tanks at railhead under 1st Canadian Army troops. "D" Squadron landed on 26 July 1944 in support of 4th Canadian Armoured Division. In March 1945, the squadrons in Italy moved to North-West Europe for the remainder of the war.

[Temujin]

https://www.ubcpress.ca/asset/60866/1/9 ... xcerpt.pdf

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[Temujin]

I noticed that you’d like to see “where” the various units he may have been at (Reinforcements, Hospital etc) where…….so let me do some digging and see what I can find. One is when he joins the 3rd Armoured Recce Regiment, I’ll try and find both their location and the location he was at “just” before this.

So, more to come

Cheers

[alroch4]

This stuff is pretty tricky! Thanks again for the education. I'll keep reading!