Qualification symbology

Discussions related to the second world war.
CanadianTanker
Assistant
Assistant
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:32 am
Commendations: 0

Qualification symbology

Post by CanadianTanker » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:56 pm

Hello all. Once again on bended knee I cast my question(s) out the greater minds.

I'm putting together on a spreadsheet the TOS/SOS of the soldiers of the Regiment (1H). I see the following Dvr Mech (TK) C. I get it as driver tank mechanic pay grade C? When there is a MV in the parenthesis = motor vehicle? Would this individual be employed as a co driver in a Sherman? Does anyone happen to have a file with such listings and their meanings?

The other is for the armour folk. I have a photo of a tank that on each side of the turret is are two squares outlined in one colour and another solid interior, on the back of the turret one square with a 3 inside the square. I'm thinking B Sqn OC, but some other information has come up to indicate it is the rear link tank due to the 3. Anyone?

Cheers

Gary

User avatar
Phil
Founder
Founder
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:19 am
Commendations: 20

Re: Qualification symbology

Post by Phil » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:45 pm

Someone in the Maple Leaf Up forums believes it to be Trade Group "C", that would be inline with this enumeration of Trade Group "C" trades that I came across here,
Clerks were part of Group “C”, along with Saddlers,Harness-makers, Shoemakers, Storemen, Textile Refitters, Tailors and Driver Mechanics.
Phil

WARTIMES.ca
Please consider Donating in order to ensure the continued availability, maintenance and growth of WARTIMES.ca.

User avatar
Temujin
Meritorious
Meritorious
Posts: 1878
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Location: Canada
Commendations: 95

Re: Qualification symbology

Post by Temujin » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:44 am

CanadianTanker wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:56 pm
Hello all. Once again on bended knee I cast my question(s) out the greater minds.

I'm putting together on a spreadsheet the TOS/SOS of the soldiers of the Regiment (1H). I see the following Dvr Mech (TK) C. I get it as driver tank mechanic pay grade C? When there is a MV in the parenthesis = motor vehicle? Would this individual be employed as a co driver in a Sherman? Does anyone happen to have a file with such listings and their meanings?

The other is for the armour folk. I have a photo of a tank that on each side of the turret is are two squares outlined in one colour and another solid interior, on the back of the turret one square with a 3 inside the square. I'm thinking B Sqn OC, but some other information has come up to indicate it is the rear link tank due to the 3. Anyone?

Cheers

Gary
Gary, the FIRST QUESTION you have almost correct. DVD Mech (TK) C, means as you said.........his “qualification grade” (which meant more money) for that designation is “C”, so he’s had more training to get this qualification......so you can have a Drv Mech (TK) A or B or C.........after the war they changed this to numbers and called the “qualification grade”........Group 1 or Group 2 or Group 3.
And as you said, (MV) would mean (Motor Vehicle).......

A Driver Mechanic meant that while also “driving” the vehicle, he was also responsible for minor vehicle repairs on the vehicles, not just his own, but vehicles that he may be with....so if a vehicle in a group needed minor repairs, he would do it (why he is trained and getting more pay than the other guys)

A Drv (MV) would NOT be a co-driver in a Sherman. You had to have the trade qualification to operate a vehicle......so the co-driver would ALSO have had the Drv (TK) training and designation. He may NOT necessarily be a “mechanic” also he may just have the driver training.

Having said that, a individual may have MORE than ONE qualification.....he may have Drv (TK) on his records, plus Drv (MV) or Drv (MC) etc etc

I believe I have a WW2 training Manuel that has the different designations in them, I’ll see if I can find it and post up a photo of that page

SECOND QUESTION

I understand, but do you have a photo you can post up of your question.......Again, somewhere in all my information I have the breakdown of Vehicle designations within a tank squadron, I’ll see if I can find it and post that up two.

Cheers

CanadianTanker
Assistant
Assistant
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:32 am
Commendations: 0

Re: Qualification symbology

Post by CanadianTanker » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:06 pm

As per requested some photos of the tac symbols. BTW Temujin, you are a pillar and an endless amazing person of information. Many many thanks..
HolyRoller2, 14 June 1946jpg copy.jpg
HolyRoller2, 14 June 1946jpg copy.jpg (971.16 KiB) Viewed 358 times
Attachments
HolyRoller2,14 June 1946 copy.jpg
HolyRoller2,14 June 1946 copy.jpg (591.68 KiB) Viewed 358 times

User avatar
Temujin
Meritorious
Meritorious
Posts: 1878
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Location: Canada
Commendations: 95

Re: Qualification symbology

Post by Temujin » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:57 pm

CanadianTanker wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:06 pm
As per requested some photos of the tac symbols. BTW Temujin, you are a pillar and an endless amazing person of information. Many many thanks..HolyRoller2, 14 June 1946jpg copy.jpg
Thank you........oh, this is Holy Roller, I believe this is one of the “few” tanks that survived the entire war (from Landing in Normandy to the Cease Fire in May 1945)......I had not seen these photo’s before so thank you so much.

Yes, just checked and 'Holy Roller' is one of just two tanks in the Canadian Army that fought from the D-Day landings until Victory in Europe Day on May 8, 1945.

Let me search a bit more on this, I haven’t found my “tank marking info” (sorry, I have over 100Gb of data stored and sometimes I just can’t find things), but let me look further

And thank you for the compliments, I try to help everyone......and if I don’t know the answer, I can try and find out

Cheers

User avatar
Temujin
Meritorious
Meritorious
Posts: 1878
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Location: Canada
Commendations: 95

Re: Qualification symbology

Post by Temujin » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 pm

Still looking, so other information for you, you may already have this, but just in case.

A few photo’s of the tank, and its “request” (with “BOMB”, the other tank that survived the entire NW Europe campaign)
77699D46-56CE-41F0-B81B-FDFF2EE52095.jpeg
77699D46-56CE-41F0-B81B-FDFF2EE52095.jpeg (418.74 KiB) Viewed 352 times
63470858-3688-4FEA-A989-AB839CAC0E79.jpeg
63470858-3688-4FEA-A989-AB839CAC0E79.jpeg (411.72 KiB) Viewed 352 times
This table is “tank markings”, and you can see the 1st Hussars would and this tank would have had RED markings (A square in this case). I have NOT seen where they put TWO marking on the same side of the tank (two squares) before......but we do know that each Regiment kind of “went there own way” in respect to vehicle markings, they were “suppose” to follow directives from HQ’s, but you see LOTS of variants in markings

It is thought that this tank was with Headquarters Troop of the regiment, hence it's name starting with an 'H' (Canadian and British regiments had a tradition of naming their tanks with names that started with the letter of whichever troop thew were in)
31936A57-836D-4254-B139-99B486C08393.jpeg
31936A57-836D-4254-B139-99B486C08393.jpeg (570.24 KiB) Viewed 352 times

User avatar
Temujin
Meritorious
Meritorious
Posts: 1878
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Location: Canada
Commendations: 95

Re: Qualification symbology

Post by Temujin » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:32 am

I’ve been searching for more info on this tank. I have found a “whole bunch” of photos of 6 CAR tanks in Normandy and will post them as soon as I get them all downloaded.......I am finding that many did NOT have tactical markings, I’m assuming as many were replacement tanks after the initial landings and crews may NOT have had time to mark them.......also, the 6 CAR received their new Sherman DD tanks in April 1944, not long before D Day. There is also a record of one of the radio operators assigned to the 6 CAR tanks on landing, and he reports that none of the tanks were carrying any markings.

Below is a photo of a TANK (I am NOT sure if this is a 6 CAR tank) which clearly shows its marking, and unlike the photo’s you posted, have the standard “markings” of just ONE marking on each side and rear of the turret. (The pictures you posted were taken in Canada, probably on the vehicles return to Canada) and looks like it has been freshly painted so I’m not sure if the side markings are accurate

More to come:

Photo below is DND photo, taken 20th June 1944
B9A2727C-49A1-44B3-840B-5F6C7B7647BF.jpeg
B9A2727C-49A1-44B3-840B-5F6C7B7647BF.jpeg (299.6 KiB) Viewed 348 times

User avatar
Temujin
Meritorious
Meritorious
Posts: 1878
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Location: Canada
Commendations: 95

Re: Qualification symbology

Post by Temujin » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:33 am

Another example of tank markings, this is a Canadian Tank on th 18th July 1944. You can see this one has a “square” with (I believe) the number 3 in it, but the marking is on the hull, NOT on the turret. So markings varied greatly......plus the photo’s I”m going thru mostly show NO marking on tanks at all, and many have the markings (usually the Allied White star) painted OUT, after D Day

I’ve also written a book (on this website) about the D Day landings and specifically the “Landing tables” that tell you which units and vehicles are in each landing craft......I”ve gone thru it, to see if I can tell when “Holy Roller” possibly landed and in which landing craft, but haven’t been able to spot it in my writings.....if you’d like to see it, go to the Main forum page, under RESEARCH.......then click on BATTLES......and go down and select D-DAY, and finally scroll down until you find JUNO BEACH LANDING TABLES, the document will download to your computer......it is “dry reading” (facts and number etc.......kind of like drinking a glass of peanut butter.......takes FOREVER to go thru)

Here’s the photo I mentioned above
633F0B67-B4F1-4FA2-BBAD-2F09A24DB092.jpeg
633F0B67-B4F1-4FA2-BBAD-2F09A24DB092.jpeg (282.3 KiB) Viewed 346 times

User avatar
Temujin
Meritorious
Meritorious
Posts: 1878
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Location: Canada
Commendations: 95

Re: Qualification symbology

Post by Temujin » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:44 pm

Gary, I found my files

Good News - I have all the files that shows the TANKS and the MEN ASSIGNED to each of the for ‘B’ Troop, 6 CAR on Landing on D Dy

Bad News - ‘Holy Roller” is NOT one of those TANKS

First the info on ‘B’ Troop
C1487AAB-88B3-42B7-AE42-10307FC46E25.jpeg
C1487AAB-88B3-42B7-AE42-10307FC46E25.jpeg (97.58 KiB) Viewed 343 times
5016F4BC-8049-4562-9A85-E2CE8BE60A3B.jpeg
5016F4BC-8049-4562-9A85-E2CE8BE60A3B.jpeg (86.74 KiB) Viewed 343 times
5744D30D-6C05-487F-8935-D7424476B4C2.jpeg
5744D30D-6C05-487F-8935-D7424476B4C2.jpeg (49.71 KiB) Viewed 343 times

User avatar
Temujin
Meritorious
Meritorious
Posts: 1878
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Location: Canada
Commendations: 95

Re: Qualification symbology

Post by Temujin » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:50 pm

Next, I’ll post which LCT’s carried the Regiment ashore, Including ‘A’, ‘B’ (DD Tanks) and ‘C’ Squadrons:
703D0A0C-25EF-4B14-AC49-A784FD081571.jpeg
703D0A0C-25EF-4B14-AC49-A784FD081571.jpeg (248.9 KiB) Viewed 358 times
AEBD3679-3C8E-40A0-9430-708FB225D06E.jpeg
AEBD3679-3C8E-40A0-9430-708FB225D06E.jpeg (314.6 KiB) Viewed 362 times
08C2CF5D-FC7C-43F4-A252-73BBC42667A9.jpeg
08C2CF5D-FC7C-43F4-A252-73BBC42667A9.jpeg (269.76 KiB) Viewed 362 times
8757DEEC-33AE-49C1-8ADF-904577B5036B.jpeg
8757DEEC-33AE-49C1-8ADF-904577B5036B.jpeg (526.7 KiB) Viewed 362 times

Post Reply