Help with Father-in-law's WWII Service Record

[klambie]

HE is Home Establishment, I believe distinct from the implied War Establishment of the unit. An Establishment is the authorized organization of a unit, in precise detail. As a made up example, you are authorized to carry exactly 800 men, of which 40 are Cpls, 15 are Sgts, etc. 18 are officers, where there are this many Majors, Capts, Lieuts etc. Can also go to 'jobs', so you can carry exactly 6 clerks, of which 4 are Ptes, 1 Cpl and 1 Sgt.

For your F-I-L, this is just administrative, he was on his way to 2 Bn 1 CIR in a few days so rather than tying up specific slot for him on their WE (maybe the man replacing him in that slot was already there) they had room to hold him for a while on their HE.

[alroch4]

Thanks!

[alroch4]

Just looking to double-check something...so he was in VERNON, B.C. from July 5, 1945 to August 22, 1945...on August 23, 1945 we went to BARRIEFIELD, Ontario...then 12 September 1945 to BROCKVILLE, Ontario...and then got discharged 9 December 1945...?

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[Temujin]

Just looking to double-check something...so he was in VERNON, B.C. from July 5, 1945 to August 22, 1945...on August 23, 1945 we went to BARRIEFIELD, Ontario...then 12 September 1945 to BROCKVILLE, Ontario...and then got discharged 9 December 1945...?Screenshot 2024-10-20 123715.jpg

Not Quite, the following is “my” list of what is being said on his orders, I’ve added the To and From so you can see what’s happening (I hope)

1. TOS Vernon 5 Jul 45
2. SOS From Vernon - To A21 BARRIEFIELD 1 Aug 45
3. TOS To X-4 List CIC (Canadian Infantry Corp) - From A21 BARRIEFIELD 2 Aug 45
4. SOS From X-4 List - to A-21 BARRIEFIELD 22 Aug 45
5. TOS To X-4 List - From A21 BARRIEFIELD 23 Aug 45
6. SOS From X-4 List - To 2nd Battalion, Canadian Infantry Regiment 23 Aug 45
7 TOS To 2nd Battalions, Canadian Infantry Regiment - From X-4 List 27 Aug 45
8.SOS From 2nd Battalion, Canadian Infantry Regiment - To A21 BARRIEFIELD 12 Sep 45
9. TOS To A21 BARRIEFIELD - From 2nd Battalion, Canadian Infantry Regiment 13 Sep 45

So this is what happened. Remember a lot of this is a “paper work trail”……it just tells us WHO this man reports to and when. So the above I’ve shown you Who he is with, then Where he is going…..And when he arrives WHO he is with (the new unit) and WHERE he came from (the old unit)

And sometimes he NEVER changes location, as you can note on the dates. No 2 and No 3 above are 1st and 2nd Aug…..so he was at A21 BARRIEFIELD and placed on the X-4 list the next day……which means he is on the list to wait to be posted to a new unit. Note that in No 3 and No 4 above, he is 20 days on the X-4 list and then is taken TOS to A21 BARRIEFIELD. My educated guess is that he ARRIVED in A21 BARRIEFIELD for a training course……..but A21 Barriefield wasn’t ready to start his course yet……..so he sits on the X-4 list (an administrative posting) UNTILL they are ready and then he OFFICIALLY is with A-21 BARRIEFIELD. He DOESN’T leave Barriefield, he stays their most likely to odd jobs all over the base each day.

The simple way to try to remember, he is ALWAYS SOS (struck off strength) at one unit and it says WHERE he is GOING TO…….then he is TOS (taken on strength) at the NEW UNIT and it tells us WHERE he came from and so on and son on

AND it seems he is being bounced around…..not really, again most it is a paper trail to indicate WHO is in charge of Him and WHEN…..so who is responsible for him and WHO he is responsible to…….and many times he sitting in the Same place.

So to answer some of your question…….he was IN Vernon from 5th July 45 UNTIL the 1st Aug 45 and then he is sent to A21 BARRIEFIELD at that time and so on. If you need more info on your entire question (my explanation above isn’t clear enough) just let me know and I’ll write it out better for you. I have done this quite a bit in the past, and I have a chart that I can fill in showing you the TOS and SOS and who he was with and where he was at.

This seems a waste of time, but you need to remember this was “war time”, thousand and thousands of troops moving all over the country from one unit to another…….and sometimes (especially for training) men would arrive EARLY and have to “wait” for the next course………AND sometimes a man “finished a course”, and had to wait on the X-4 list while all the clerks in Ottawa decided where and what unit he was going to next.

I hope I’m helping you here, if you still don’t quite get it, tell me and I’ll try to explain better.

Later in the Military, they didn’t have the X lists, you went to a Training Unit and you waited their…..in the Engineers we had a Unit called “Troop Support”…….this was for all men & women who were WAITING to start a course. Troops Support would then “farm you out” to do odd jobs all over the base every day…….for example the Supply Unit on base tells Troop Support “I need 5 men to unload trucks tomorrow” and off we went, and the next day the Base Mess Hall (Kitchen) tells Troop Support “I need 3 men tomorrow to pick up 1,00,000 pea’s that the cooks dropped on the floor tomorrow” and off we went……….wasn’t exciting, but kept you busy while you waited.

[alroch4]

This helps me so much. Thanks!

[alroch4]

Me again. I don't want to be a pain, but entry #8 sure looks like "Brockville". Is that a mistake? It is about 50 minute drive east of Berriefield.

[Temujin]

Me again. I don't want to be a pain, but entry #8 sure looks like "Brockville". Is that a mistake? It is about 50 minute drive east of Berriefield.

No problem, your NOT a “pain”……we’re here to answer questions and I like helping others……so always “ask away”.

Yes, it says “Brockville”…….I assume (as I have no other information to go by) that the 2nd Battalion, Canadian Infantry Regiment was located their……or at least the HQ’s of the unit. This makes sense to me as Brockville had space in the Armoury (Brockville Rifles) and as you said it was just 50 min from Barriefield (Kingston) which had large training areas, rifle range, lots of barrack space etc (I was station in Barriefield so I know the camp and facilites)

I’ve done some research on the Canadian Army Pacific Force, but I’ve not found any ‘war diaries’ to date. I might look again, because if we could find them, it would tells us where all the components of the 6th Cdn Division (CAPF) were stationed

[Temujin]

Found this photo at LAC, which confirms that indeed, units of the CAPF were stationed in Brockville

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Corporals N. Semchuk and AA Adams of the Canadian Army Pacific Force examining their boots, Brockville, Ontario, Canada, ca. June-July 1945.

https://recherche-collection-search.bac ... a114602-v6

[Temujin]

I found the War Diaries for the 1st Canadian Infantry Regiment CAPF

I’ve been going thru them and it tells the story of their “birth”, build up etc. I’ve only copied a few pages to give you more info

So the this page shows the “birth’ of the Regiment and they were to be stationed in the Barriefield area (so near Barriefield). The HQ’s of the Regiment was located at building at A-21

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I’ve also taken screen shots of the DAY he arrived at the 2nd Battalion, 1st Canadian Infantry Regiment. It doesn’t give names, but shows you the “strength” of each of the units within the Regiment

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And this page shows the Commanding Officers of each of the Battalions within the Regiment

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So this gives you more info on why and where is was. Also, by looking at the REGIMENT organization, you can see it was based on American “REGIMENT’ org…….so lots of support troops, in fact the Organization was like one of our Brigades.

It’s organization had:
Headquarters
Headquarters Company
Anti Tank Company
Cannon Company (this was Artillery)
Service Company (trucks, cooks etc etc)
Medical Detachment
AND THREE INFANTRY BATTALION’s of approx 800 Officer’s and Men each

Below is the organization of the Regiment by the 12 Sept 1945

oocihm.lac_reel_t11332.514.jpeg (2.03 MiB) Viewed 17408 times

If you’d like to see all this information yourself, go to Heritage Canadiana website, type in T-11332 in the search box, and then when it brings it up “should say” “War Diaries: T-11332”…….then you can start looking. The info on the Regiment starts about page 421 on the file……so skip all the stuff before this

Good Luck

[alroch4]

Thank you so much! Very interesting...you clearly know you way around the ol' Internet!